Daten über Produktion der F-Body's

[falloutboy]

Hi, mal eine etwas andere Frage.
In der Vorlesung kam derletzt das Thema Modulbau auf, die Behauptung des Profs "VW hat damit als erster in den 80er Jahren angefangen"
Ich dazu: "Das glaub ich kaum!" - Meine Gedanken gingen zum Modularen Aufbau der F-Bodys 2nd Gen bzw 1st Gen. Denn ich kann ja Subframe mit den ganzen Anbauteilen entfernen, oder alleine zB Front Karosserie in einem entfernen / anbringen.

Nun is die Sache, das sind von mir nur Erfahrungswerte bzw Denke von mir. Hat jemand Bilder, Videos, Texte die belegen das GM, FoMoCo, Chrysler etc vor 1980 mit Modulbauweise angefangen hat? Denn mein Prof fand meine Behauptung sehr interessant und würde gern mehr darüber wissen.
Bedingung ist allerdings das das für Großserie benutzt wurde.
Für Mercedes ist Großserie alles über 200,000 Stück und ich würde zB ne Millionen pro Jahr als Großserie nehmen (das dürfte Konzernweit doch locker F-Body's hinbekommen haben??)

Hier mal noch ein paar Kommentare von den US Kollegen -- http://www.nastyz28.com/forum/showthread.php?t=240794

FalloutBoy - Assembly line workers

Hi,
I was in a lecture a few days ago, the topic was about module based assembly of cars. As an example my Prof used early VW's (Golf, Passat, etc) and claimed that VW was the first to use this kind of production method.
I intervened and claimed that GM used module based assembly at least in 70's or even 60's
One point was of course our beloved F-Bodys
So now I need some facts, papers, drawing videos description or what ever to back up my claim and prove that the US were ahead of the time.

So may I even be lucky enough that we have still some actual assembly line workers from back in the day here?
Of course everybody can contribute if you can provide solid facts

Thanks folks

70COPO

Module based? Can you elaborate further?

Twozs worked at Terrytown I think.

mgoad1971

http://gerpisa.org/rencontre/9.rencontre/S05Graziadio.pdf
http://hal.inria.fr/docs/00/22/97/58/PDF/Version_publiee.pdf

And the Germans did it before us. Although you could say engine modular assembly was done by F0RD. What constitutes a Module? Just putting brakes on and letting someone else do the suspension, or putting together the entire front sub-frame?

falloutboy

Quote: Module based? Can you elaborate further?

module in terms of sub-assemblies. Like the whole dash with all wiring, gauges, trim and so in is pre assembled, most times, by a sub contractor like Faurecia http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faurecia
or just such small parts like a suspension strut or a door lock. Or a more complex module nowadays a seat

So I thought I remembered that e.g. F-Bodys the front exterior was put on the car as a whole part, bolted together. Or maybe even the whole front subframe, came pre assembled with what ever already on it and just bolted to the chassis.

So yes Mark was right

@mgoad

Quote: And the Germans did it before us

could you elaborate?

Quote: Although you could say engine modular assembly was done by F0RD

quotes, sources for that?

Quote: What constitutes a Module? Just putting brakes on and letting someone else do the suspension, or putting together the entire front sub-frame?

thats the tricky part. As said, a module can even be a small part (door lock) or maybe even a whole subframe including engine, suspension and exterior parts

The problem, most of my sources or the script of my Prof is in german so its probably not much use for you guys  but lets see if I can link it here so you can see / use it.

@mgoad - will have a look at your linked pdfs

mgoad1971

I can still order food and ask where the bathroom is auf deutsch!!

Quote: What constitutes a Module? Just putting brakes on and letting someone else do the suspension, or putting together the entire front sub-frame?

This is where the actual argument will boil down to. If F0RD 'invented' the vehicle assembly line and used it between 1908 and 1915, then even sub-assembly (or module) was present.

now, if someone outsourced a module assembly (Getting rear ends from xyz assembly line company and front ends from another) then that is a little different.

And the very first car manufacturers in the world were French!!!!!!!!!

Quote:Originally Posted by POS71RS
Well I feel pretty confident to say that Ford's assembly line didn't build every component onto the car, ie,locks as mentioned, gauges?.... Weren't the first Ford bodies still stamped elsewhere?.. ie, Fischer or somewhere?
I really don't understand the distinction I guess.

That's what I'm saying! If one guy on the assembly is tasked with putting four bolts into something that holds one piece in place and that's all he does is it considered 'module'

I also consider 'module assembly' to only include robotic 'assemblers'. They throw the whole part (or sub-part) of the vehicle together with lightning speed. In that case, I think Mitsubishi (or name Japanese company here) started that in 1976

twozs

yes i did , and it's Tarrytown . home of Ichabod Crane and the legend of sleepy hollow ! home of nelson d Rockefeller and pocatico estate . anyway, its flat as a pancake now ! i can testify for a standard gmad assembly plant from 1980 to 1990 . ok there were " sub Assemblies" everywhere that fed the line . there was parts that came in whole also . there was a complete line just for the dash ( hard trim ) . there was the " cushion room " ( soft trim ) that built the seats . the major parts of the line were ; body , paint , hard trim , soft trim , chassis and final line , then to the anchor lot ( anchor motor freight was the GM owned company that shipped all 1000 cars per day out of north Tarrytown to hundreds of different dealers . it was a huge mess as the shifts changed and the car carriers were heading out . we were a high volume plant that ran 2 or 3 different brand names and at least 2 different models of each car . . it's mind boggling the amount of parts that are needed to build 1000 cars a day , and get 1000 cars a day out of the plant .

brownbigblock454

I think this depends on how your professor wants to define it. GM was operating under a modified version of the old "vertical integration" model started by Henry Ford. GM did it but owned all of the suppliers. Fisher Body supplied the bodies and swing metal to the assembly plants. Fisher was an owned subsidiary of GM however. I think you prof will be a stickler in that he will argue the more modern version where an independent supplier provides whole subassemblies. The design and manufacture is performed by the supplier. The Chinese, who are going to destroy about everyone, are now using the old model. Why? Like Henry, they want to control everything in the operation.

Marks71BB

While many people think that Henry Ford invented the automotive assembly line, it was actually invented by Ransom Eli Olds. Olds had worked on cars for most of his life, including steam-powered cars in the 1880s and 1890s. His assembly line allowed him to be the first mass-producer of cars in the United States, and he dominated the American automotive industry from 1901 to 1904.

However, the reason most people think Henry Ford invented the automotive production line is because Ford took the idea and improved it. Ford's assembly line was actually based on a slaughterhouse's de-assembly line. While Olds' assembly line for cars may have been the first, Henry Ford's assembly line was built on essentially the same idea and was far more efficient. Ford's line assigned workers to one specific production task. Each task had a production station. A car would arrive at the station, and the worker would perform the specified task -- over and over again on each car that came by. Because each worker had one task and worked on just one car at a time, it meant that hundreds of cars were being built simultaneously throughout the factory. At Ford's original factory, a Ford Model T could be assembled in 93 minutes from start to finish. In fact, every three minutes, a completed car rolled off the production line.

Having the product come to the worker and assigning the worker to perform the same task on each car made production much more efficient and brought the cost of producing the cars down, too. This brought new vehicle prices down considerably and put cars into the hands of people that formerly couldn't afford such a luxury

source -- http://auto.howstuffworks.com/under-the-hood/auto-manufacturing/automotive-production-line2.htm

falloutboy

Quote:Originally Posted by twozs
i can testify for a standard gmad assembly plant from 1980 to 1990 .

got some dates before 1980?

Quote: ok there were " sub Assemblies" everywhere that fed the line . there was parts that came in whole also . there was a complete line just for the dash ( hard trim ) . there was the " cushion room " ( soft trim ) that built the seats . the major parts of the line were ; body , paint , hard trim , soft trim , chassis and final line , then to the anchor lot ( anchor motor freight was the GM owned company that shipped all 1000 cars per day out of north Tarrytown to hundreds of different dealers .

yes this is exactly what I was looking for. Do you got some papers, pictures or videos to show this? Maybe even for the years before 1980?

Quote: I think this depends on how your professor wants to define it.

thats the good part, he was all fire an flame as I told him something new.
Quote: GM was operating under a modified version of the old "vertical integration" model started by Henry Ford. GM did it but owned all of the suppliers.

the same as VW did with a lot of stuff. back in the 80's

Quote: Fisher Body supplied the bodies and swing metal to the assembly plants. Fisher was an owned subsidiary of GM however.

Are there any papers, videos or pictures that show this?
I am very curios of this myself
Q

uote: I think you prof will be a stickler in that he will argue the more modern version where an independent supplier provides whole subassemblies. The design and manufacture is performed by the supplier.

Nope, he quite open minded about that. He thinks it first has to proof if this is really something worth it, or is only used to tie a manufacturer to the OEM.

@mark
but the problem with Fords way is nicely shown in Chaplin's: Modern Times

[McMurrphy]

Ich kann dir zwar keine Fakten auf den Tisch legen, aber ich bin eigentlich deiner Meinung.

Chevrolet/Pontiac haben die F-Body sehr Modular aufgebaut. Auch die Motoren sind soweit ich weiss untereinander austauschbar. Teilweise sind diese "Module" auch Model und Marken übergreifend. z.B. Wenn man den Motor, die Hinterachse, oder das Getriebe als Modul nimmt. Habe aber noch nicht so grosse Erfahrung mit dem Amis und lehne mich mit meiner Meinung/Aussage ziemlich aus dem Fenster.

[andy]

Ohne jetzt die ellenlangen Texte gelesen zu haben, Frage ist was unter "Modulbauweise" im einzelnen verstanden wird.

Sowas wie Motor-Getriebe-Achseinheit? Oder Baukastenprinzip in der einzelne Baugruppen (Elektrik, Amatureneinheiten bspw.) in verschiedenen Modellen Verwendung findet. Dann waren die Amis ihrer Zeit und VW schon weit voraus. Möglicherweise lassen sich die Strategien der deutschen und amerikanischen Autobauer auch gar nicht vergleichen.

Ausser Frage ist das Plattformprinzip, ein Chassis für versch. Modelle. Und das gabs glaub ich schon lange vor den Golfs und F-Bodys.

[falloutboy]

Der Lange Text war auch einfach nur als weitere Info gedacht.

Also eigentlich ist damit gemeint das "Module" Vorgefertigt werden ... wie ich gerade Tom schrieb.

Die Modulbauweise die ich fragte hat jetzt nicht unbedingt etwas mit der interchangeability von Bauteilen zu tun. Es geht mehr darum ob die Bauteile in "Modulen" vorgefertigt wurden.

Beispiel: Instrumententräger VW Modelle größer als Golf. Wird als Modul inklusive Spritzwand, Instrumententräger, Lenksäule, Dash, Dashpad und Instrumenten vorgefertigt und dann in die Rohkarosse eingesetzt. Ob die selbe Spritzwand auch im Phaeton oder Audi verbaut wird ist für die Betrachtung eher nebensächlich.

Wenn ich einen Nachweiß hätte das in Volumenmodellen vor den 80ern viele Module vorgefertigt und sozusagen am Stück eingebaut wurden, wäre mein Prof entkräftet.
Beispiel: Front sheetmetal wird zusammengebaut (Fender, inner fender, front valance, grill etc) am Band ans Auto gebaut.
Ein Modul kann allerdings auch das Schließsystem, Türschloß, Handschufachschloß, Kofferraumschloß sein. Es muss nich zusammengebaut sein, nur muss es als Modul so geplant sein, dass es zusagen schon fertig ans Werk kommt.
Bremse ist auch so ein Modul, und das einzige Fahrzeug wo die Bremse am Stück ins Fahrzeug kommt ist der Smart for two.

Ich hoffe das macht das vllt etwas klarer.

[Rocky48]

Ganz richtig Andy. Das Modul- bzw Baukastenprinzip praktizierten die Amerikaner schon im 2. Weltkrieg als das Department of Defense den Lieferanten von Militärfahrzeugen vorschrieb, dass alle wesentlichen Teile unter den Fahrzeugen austauschbar sein müssen. Wenn also das Getriebe von nem REO zu Brei ging nahm man das von einem JIMMY, der grade dank eines Volltreffers der Deutschen seine Karosse verloren hatte usw. Wahrscheinlich war das einer der Gründe, weshalb sie den Krieg gewonnen haben  (JOKE)
Bei den Pkws kann man das auch am besten bei den Modellen aus den Siebzigern sehen. Die Fisher-Body Fahrgastzellen waren bei den meisten Modellen identisch bis auf Ausstattungsmerkmale. Lediglich die Frontmaske und das Heck waren stylistisch unterschiedlich (und natürlich die Enbleme). Man konnte also mit etwas umschrauben von Front und Heckpartie aus einem Chevy Caprice einen Buick Riviera oder Roadmaster machen, um nur ein Beispiel zu nennen.

Nachtrag: Sorry Julian, hab wohl meinen Beitrag gestern abend im selben Momemnt geschrieben, als du erklärt hast, was du meinst. Zur Bestätigung deiner These, dass die Modulbauweise in den USA schon VOR VW stattfand solltest du mal bei "Johnson Controls" recherchieren bzw anfragen. Das ist, glaube ich, der grösste Automotive-Zulieferer. Soweit mir bekannt ist haben die schon in den Dreissiger Jahren als Zulieferer für die Auto-Industrie komplette Module vorgefertigt, die dann am Band verbaut wurden.

Viel Erfolg im Disput mit deinem Prof 

[andy]

Sag ihm er soll sich erst mal gründlich informieren bevor er falsche Behauptungen in die Welt setzt   

Und Du solltest anschliessend schnell verschwinden 

[falloutboy]

lol